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yllan 3 hours ago [-]
I’m the author. This is an experiment of mine in figuring out how to let Mac OS 9 connect to modern network services and environments.
Since Mac OS 9 doesn’t have out-of-the-box support for modern secure networking protocols, you often have to go through a proxy, which is pretty painful. I wanted to make it possible for an old Mac to connect to modern web services on its own.
There are also two related projects for connecting to Bluesky and Mastodon:
Those also add emoji text rendering, since emoji have become such an important part of modern internet culture. Mac OS 9 does support some early Unicode, but it is, after all, nearly 30-year-old software, so that support is naturally incomplete.
The main reason I chose Mac OS 9 is that these modern services are actually fairly demanding for old machines: parsing JSON instead of a more compact binary format, handling generally large images, doing cryptographic computations, and so on. I think 68k machines would probably struggle too much. If the goal is to run independently without relying on a proxy, you really need something with relatively modern specs.
BTW, I haven’t actually run this on real hardware either. I used QEMU during development. I do have an iBook G4 signed by Woz, but it stopped booting a few years ago.
16 MB RAM required, 32 MB RAM recommended... how refreshing! Great work.
VorpalWay 3 hours ago [-]
For the time when OS 9 was relevant that would have been a RAM hog. My iBook (first generation) had 32 MB RAM on board (plus an upgrade slot, how refreshing).
Sure, that wasn't top of the line, but it would definitely restrict your ability to multi task with other programs at the same time. My memory is that many programs used far less than that, allowing you to easily have 5-7 programs open (I had a RAM upgrade for a total of 64 MB).
ethanpil 6 hours ago [-]
Wow. As a comparison, I just opened a new Google Maps tab in Chrome.
According to the Chrome Task Manager, the tab alone uses 433mb RAM and 34mb GPU memory footprint after first load.
ccamrobertson 7 hours ago [-]
This is really cool, time to dust off an old PowerPC. I've been thinking about building apps for old Mac OS versions for a while with the advent of LLMs, glad to see someone is doing it.
maelito 2 hours ago [-]
Shameless plug : I'm working on https://cartes.app, a Web OpenStreetMap app.
Far less difficult as coding for an old OS obviously, but still a challenge !
The Web has plenty of potential, but constraints too, mostly because of dominant actors, such as Apple that hid the PWA install button... Or Firefox not having any install banner, whereas chrome does.
Can't post it yet as a proper subject, it can't handle top page load.
nhubbard 7 hours ago [-]
Would love to see the source code for this and the underlying details like Classic or Carbon, and the libraries mentioned on Tinker Different for TLS, HTTP/2, and Unicode
kaizenite 33 minutes ago [-]
Increasingly seeing retro/throwback projects even within AI systems. Love to see it
anonymousiam 5 hours ago [-]
I was hoping this article had something to do with Microware OS-9, but it doesn't.
Great work developing for OS9 still. I had taken started developing in Think C for a few months as a fun side project to work , and it still has some interesting ideas for development. Plenty of communities for this nowadays still.
robot_jesus 8 hours ago [-]
I love stuff like this. Even though I don’t have a machine capable with running OS 9 natively, I’m glad this exists. Looks awesome!
erickhill 5 hours ago [-]
I'll be trying this out on my 500Mhz Powerbook Pismo running 9.2 tonight!
IgorPartola 4 hours ago [-]
Wait but why isn’t it an Electron app? I thought visual apps like this required at least 1-2GB of RAM to run. How can it possibly only need 16MB?! Must be vaporware.
guerrilla 7 hours ago [-]
Hmmm. I wonder what the most beefed up OS 9 computer would be... I loved that OS so much.
classichasclass 7 hours ago [-]
Currently my "big" native 9.2.2 system is a MDD G4 with a Sonnet 1.8GHz dual 7447A upgrade, 2GB RAM (1.5GB useable in OS 9) and an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro. I'm sure there's a config more extreme than that out there. It is a pleasure to use even though it's one of the windtunnel systems.
You can get a 1.67Ghz G4 Mac Mini on eBay with OS 9 preinstalled. It's wicked fast (especially with an IDE SSD adapter)
There's faster single thread accelerator cards that were made for a while by a guy on the 68kMLA forums, but that was many years ago. I think Action Retro on YouTube has one that broke 2Ghz
JeremyHerrman 5 hours ago [-]
My OS 9 battlestation is a G4 tower (Digital Audio) with a Sonnet dual 1.6GHz upgrade, 1.5GB RAM and a nvidia GeForce4 Ti which is one of the best OS 9 graphics cards available.
fleeno 6 hours ago [-]
I believe from Apple officially it would be the dual 1.25ghz MDD G4. I had one new, and still have it running today!
favorited 2 hours ago [-]
And, unofficially, MacOS9Lives can boot directly to OS 9 on FW800 PowerMacs, which have 1.42GHz processors with 2x the L3 cache. Officially, those machines only supported OS 9 via Classic.
I used it to install OS 9 on my G4 Mac mini, and, aside from an annoying bug where the USB mouse is completely unresponsive after booting 50% of the time, it works great.
Officially? A single cpu G4 tower. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
benj111 6 hours ago [-]
Quite a lot. I remember my dad's SE(?) could be upgraded to 128mb ram or some ludicrous figure, compared to my 8mb 486.
Lammy 6 hours ago [-]
>SE(?) could be upgraded to 128mb ram
Probably an SE/30; vastly different internally than the original 68000 SE, more like a MacⅡx wearing a classic Mac shell. Great machine <3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_SE/30
analogpixel 6 hours ago [-]
The cool thing isn't so much os9map (yes it's cool) , but the fact that the data wasn't locked behind some wall and they were able to do whatever they wanted with it. There are a lot of cool ideas out there that are thwarted because the data is just locked away behind something only a very limited web gui can access, and you are at the mercy of people who's greatest ideas are ways to make the most horrible money extracting experience they can.
Since Mac OS 9 doesn’t have out-of-the-box support for modern secure networking protocols, you often have to go through a proxy, which is pretty painful. I wanted to make it possible for an old Mac to connect to modern web services on its own.
There are also two related projects for connecting to Bluesky and Mastodon:
https://yllan.org/software/PlatinumSky/ https://yllan.org/software/Palaeomastodon/
Those also add emoji text rendering, since emoji have become such an important part of modern internet culture. Mac OS 9 does support some early Unicode, but it is, after all, nearly 30-year-old software, so that support is naturally incomplete.
The main reason I chose Mac OS 9 is that these modern services are actually fairly demanding for old machines: parsing JSON instead of a more compact binary format, handling generally large images, doing cryptographic computations, and so on. I think 68k machines would probably struggle too much. If the goal is to run independently without relying on a proxy, you really need something with relatively modern specs.
BTW, I haven’t actually run this on real hardware either. I used QEMU during development. I do have an iBook G4 signed by Woz, but it stopped booting a few years ago.
I’d also like to thank bbenchoff’s MacSSL:
https://bbenchoff.com/pages/MacSSL.html
and cy384’s opentransport-mbedtls:
https://github.com/cy384/opentransport-mbedtls
Both were a big help.
I need to get a GPU for my MDD G4 and then I'd love to try them out on real metal
Sure, that wasn't top of the line, but it would definitely restrict your ability to multi task with other programs at the same time. My memory is that many programs used far less than that, allowing you to easily have 5-7 programs open (I had a RAM upgrade for a total of 64 MB).
Far less difficult as coding for an old OS obviously, but still a challenge !
The Web has plenty of potential, but constraints too, mostly because of dominant actors, such as Apple that hid the PWA install button... Or Firefox not having any install banner, whereas chrome does.
Can't post it yet as a proper subject, it can't handle top page load.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-9
(The Hitachi clone is also quite nice.)
Looks like the most truly-OP upgrade you could do is a dual-1.8ghz G4 upgrade card which is kind of crazy to consider: https://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_datasheets/d...
There's faster single thread accelerator cards that were made for a while by a guy on the 68kMLA forums, but that was many years ago. I think Action Retro on YouTube has one that broke 2Ghz
I used it to install OS 9 on my G4 Mac mini, and, aside from an annoying bug where the USB mouse is completely unresponsive after booting 50% of the time, it works great.
Probably an SE/30; vastly different internally than the original 68000 SE, more like a MacⅡx wearing a classic Mac shell. Great machine <3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_SE/30